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Free Will vs Fate - I Need Help Understanding This

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  • Free Will vs Fate - I Need Help Understanding This

    Hi everyone. This is my first post here. Im putting it in the law of Attraction section because the whole idea of being free to create anything I want is integral to my problem.

    One area that I'm struggling with immensely is the notion of free will vs predetermined fate. I am beginning to study Lesters published works, and I encountered the following statements he made regarding our free will or lack thereof:


    You can't change what the body will go through

    All actions that the body will perform you have already concluded before it came into existence. The only freedom you have is whether or not to identify yourself with the body and its actions.

    you cannot change anything that the body was preset to do by you. You're going to do exactly what you preset for that body before you came into it. There is
    no free will in worldly living.

    We preset the behavior of this physical body before we enter it

    As I interpret this, that means we have zero free will in this life. Every single thing that we go through or experience has been predetermined before we got into this body. To me this is pretty depressing. In effect, it seems we are little more than puppets, who are forced to act out a script for our lives in which every single thing has already been decided. It seems the only free will we have is to recognise that the body is a puppet and we are more than our bodies. However even that recognition doesnt appear to alter our fate here, as it wont enable us to change anything we go through even one iota. We are trapped, prisoners of a story written in stone that we must act out to completion before we shuffle off this mortal coil.

    Contemplating this gives me a sense of utter futility. But also it leaves me deeply confused. I was attracted to the Sedona Method (and other self improvement philosophies) precisely because they promise to show you how to take control of your life and be/do/have all the things that you would like to be, do or have. But if we have no choice as Lester said, then what on earth is the point in even trying anything? What will be, will be. There is nothing we can do about it. So that means that trying to do anything is pointless. Trying to change your life, or attract health, prosperity or positive relationships if you DONT already have them is a waste of time. If you are meant to have it, you will. If you dont have it, its because you are not meant to have it and all the positive action and spiritual growth in the world wont change that. You could sit in a room all day and whatever has been decided for you will come to you, no matter what.

    So I dont understand how on the one hand we are helpless puppets, but on the other hand we can "have it all if we choose to"? They can't both be true. Furthermore, doesn't it also mean that everything that happened to Lester was preset by him before he incarnated? He was MEANT to suffer all those health problems, and he was MEANT to achieve enlightenment. It wasn't his choice, it was his destiny to do it precisely how and when he did it. So we decide, before we come into this body, whether we achieve enlightenment or not?

    Furthermore, when you see all the horrible suffering that many people go through in this life, all the murder, torture, rape, starvation and death that people endure in their lives.....are we really saying that they decided before they incarnated that they would suffer horribly? That their only choice is not to identify with their bodies as those bodies are subjected to such awful experiences? If this is the case, I don't understand what the point of it all is, if we have no free will to write our own script for this life.

    I know I am missing something, as this predeterminism seems to conflict strongly with my own inner beliefs but more importantly with a lot of other teachings, such the Christian idea of "Ask and ye shall receive" and the whole Law of Attraction teachings which show you how to manifest anything in your life. I would really appreciate anyones input and help in understanding this issue as its become a major obstacle to my progress. Thank you!

  • #2
    Hi Robert,

    great question!!! Let me start saying that i do not pretend to have the answer on a question like this but I thought it would be nice to just share some thoughts about it and perhaps try to shine a light on this question from different angles.

    first of all I can tell you from my experience that all the great masters, including Lester, continually contradict themselves.
    Not to confuse us but I guess because there are always more truths than we can imagine.

    secondly, i struggled with the question myself for a great many years and still sometimes the dilemma comes in again.
    'shall I focus, go for it, put all my effort and love and energy to accomplish this goal or shall I release and just let life happen by itself?"
    (hahahahaah as if life WILL NOT happen by itself when I choose the other option!!)

    When a lot of 'I' is out of the way, in other words, when underlying emotions, wants, struggle have been released, whatever is in store for you will happen and whether that will be the accomplishment of your goal, I guess depends on your allignment. Since 'you' will NEVER know exactly what is in store for you, and what is predetermend, all is possible. Everything is possible.

    But just notice how the mind in a way loves to get into a question like this and looks immediately for the PROOF (in this statement of Lester) that life sucks and that we are all puppets on a string now. This feeds our unconscious (limiting) belief that we are powerless and so we immediately grab it. Just notice how familiar it feels to do this.

    Letting go of wanting to figure it all out is a great suggestion here. Because as long as our mind is in charge here we will get stuck and never get the answer.

    So could you just welcome 'not knowing' and all the emotions and sounds and pictures and memories that this brings up?

    And can you also welcome all the desire to change this, figure it out and be in control?

    And can you welcome any sense that this whole thing is about you or who you really are?

    Can you relax for a moment and rest as that which is beyond questions and answers...

    Could you be open for the possibility that not knowing here might be opening the door for 'knowingness'?


    Just some thoughts and suggestions from just another traveller on the path!!

    Love and peace and joy for you!!

    And thanks so much for sharing such an important question

    Liesbeth

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Robert, the shortest as well as the best answer I have come across to the question is - what you meet in life, is fate, how you meet it, is free-will.
      What, in this moment, is lacking?

      Comment


      • #4
        free will vs fate

        Hello Robert,

        What I like most about your post is the quality of your writing! Such lucid prose is a joy to read.

        As for "the big question" itself; hell if I know!!! But in a way, I actually find it comforting to think that it's all "in the can" as Hale quotes Lester to have said.
        Because if it's true, the pre-destiny thing, then I can just let myself relinquish, once and for all, my self-blame and criticism. I can relax in the knowledge that it's not about accomplishments, achievements, etc etc but rather, it's about how well I learn the lessons of the heart in the midst of whatever comes my way.

        It's why I'm so ambivalent about goals... life truly is a mystery and I think I like it that way.

        Except when I'm back in the struggle of trying to figure it out!

        Joan
        joanie

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Robert,

          How do you think having the answer to this question will help you?

          Will it help you to allow what is here in this moment right now? Wanting to figure things out takes us out of the present moment. The more we can rest in the present moment, allow what is here right now, including the experience of confusion, ( could you allow the confusion to be here?) everything that you are wanting to know will effortlessly be revealed to you along with discovering how you are so much more than any of the questions or their apparent answers that your mind can come up with.

          So could you let go fo wanting to figure this out?
          Best,
          Delilah
          Last edited by DelilahCertifiedSMCoach; 02-28-2012, 06:40 AM.
          www.theaccordcenter.net

          Comment


          • #6
            I too struggle with this question, upon releasing it. I feel the answer is both. It is pre-determined but its pre-determined by the Universe, and since we are the Universe we have free will. That feels good to me!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Robert32 View Post
              Hi everyone. This is my first post here. Im putting it in the law of Attraction section because the whole idea of being free to create anything I want is integral to my problem.

              One area that I'm struggling with immensely is the notion of free will vs predetermined fate. I am beginning to study Lesters published works, and I encountered the following statements he made regarding our free will or lack thereof:

              hello, i realize this is over late reply.... but...

              i dont see the contradiction nor the lack of freedom from it.

              the fate of the body is predetermined, but it was predetermined by you. notice lester said there is no free will in this worldly living.

              the only real freedom/free will then is from the point of view of the Self. i think lester is trying to say if you want free will, then realize who you really are.

              Comment


              • #8
                That quote from lester really caught me off guard, and whether or not I should use the law of attraction (in the sense of trying to get into a flow state and release to feel good so I attract things into my life) or just "be" whatever state i'm in and let things just be, and merely act as a "witness".

                When we are in a state of flow and in a state of no blockages, are we in a state of receiving? Are we in a state where the whole acts through us and we receive inspired action to bring in abundance and wealth and good health and relationships - that goes with the flow of the universe? Or can the flow of the universe be that you are poor, you are unhealthy etc. Or is the universe only positive?

                - - - Updated - - -

                That quote from lester really caught me off guard, and whether or not I should use the law of attraction (in the sense of trying to get into a flow state and release to feel good so I attract things into my life) or just "be" whatever state i'm in and let things just be, and merely act as a "witness".

                When we are in a state of flow and in a state of no blockages, are we in a state of receiving? Are we in a state where the whole acts through us and we receive inspired action to bring in abundance and wealth and good health and relationships - that goes with the flow of the universe? Or can the flow of the universe be that you are poor, you are unhealthy etc. Or is the universe only positive?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi danielx!

                  The witness is always witnessing. We just don't focus our attention on that. The witness is always aware but is unaffected by what is appearing. When we notice that which we really are, awareness, then we notice how awareness is is always in flow, always open and receptive.

                  See if you can find where "you" end and the "whole" begins. Explore this without referring to the mind, the body, or memory. You will discover that there is no separation between the whole and you or me or anything.

                  You are on target when you write about being in flow and being receptive.

                  The whole includes everything there is not either/or, only and, and, and, and, and. Both positive and negative are only appearances to which we give meaning.

                  How about exploring the idea of positive and negative through a holistic release?

                  Could you resist the negative as much as you do?

                  Could you welcome the negative as best you can?

                  And...

                  Could you hold on to the positive as much as you are?

                  Could you let go of the positive as best you can?

                  Best,
                  Delilah
                  www.theaccordcenter.net

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi folks!

                    What is really underneath questions about free will and fate is the desire for control. Are we in control or are being controlled? The mind loves these kinds of conversations. And they can be fun. Sometimes. When we are in process these kinds of questions can reveal what is coloring our thoughts and feelings and these are the very things to release on. What happens when there is a so called negative or positive event in one's life. What do we think or feel? How do we react? Everyone would like to avoid difficulty, challenges, tragedy and catastrophe. My Grandfather used to say if you want to avoid these things don't get out of bed. Life is filled with experiences of every sort. If we look for ways to avoid the so called negative experiences we are avoiding life itself.

                    Most people will tell you that the worst things that happened in their lives were the best things that happened. They discovered things that only adversity could reveal to them. Releasing allows us to uncover all the distractions from our unlimited selves brilliantly and efficiently. And sometimes adversity is what motivates us to release further. I am not suggesting that we look for trouble. But when a challenge appears in awareness, release on it. Allow all the fear and whatever else comes up to come up fully so it can be released.

                    If we are going to fantasize about being controlled (fate) then it can be fun to imagine that the Universe is conspiring for all of us to discover the truth of what we are. But since there is no separate Me from a separate Universe we can see that we, ourselves, are conspiring to discover and experience our own infinitude.

                    Love,
                    Delilah
                    www.theaccordcenter.net

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      If you're concerned about free will and fate. I would like to offer my point of view.

                      When you're driving somewhere you have a choice of routes. You get to choose the routes, once chosen it becomes fate. So if you choose a road and you find yourself stuck in traffic the only time it became fate was when you made the decision to take that route.

                      In that sense there is free will in every choice you make and fate is what comes of that decision. The idea that we have a destiny (or destination) chosen before birth only serves as an idea. Because everything in our experience becomes fate. That we are fated to arriving there or not is fated. Only a result of the paths we choose through exercising free will, the choice to have a sandwich becomes fate once we place the order.

                      The choice to let go or hold on to ideas. It becomes fate once you use free will to choose. It's not really either or. It is both. So when it comes to LOA, you can let go of wanting control and allow yourself to have control by choosing.

                      Alex

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thank you Alex and Deliah, very helpful replies.

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